Safe Speed Forums

Posted on the things wrong in notts thread after seeing bit about police lying in wait for dodgy vehicles beside anpr cameras - (how could they - they're all doing paperwork/ WE AINT GOT MANY TRAFPOLS).- in the front page of Thurs Daily Mail.
Wondered what other papers got in about it -

The sun said -http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005132210,,00.html

Hertfordshire Chief Constable Frank Whiteley said the plan was “a key step in grasping the opportunities ANPR provides for denying criminals use of the roads”.(Drivers or crooks??)
When a wanted vehicle passes it can be tracked and the driver arrested.( if a police officer is available this week)

In the times --Times online ==link = search "cameras": search site "cameras":
results =85% Police track suspects by road cameras 24 Mar 2005 - to see whole story.


March 24, 2005

Police track suspects by road cameras
By Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent


POLICE are setting up a national network of more than 2,000 cameras on motorways and in city centres to track down suspects on the move.

Computers linked to the cameras automatically read number plates, check them against national files and alert police if the driver is wanted or a suspect. Fines for traffic breaches such as driving without insurance or tax will be used to fund development of the system, chief constables said yesterday.

Over the next three years the computer links, known as the automatic number-plate recognition system, will be added to the cameras on gantries watching motorway traffic and main routes. Police are also going to add the links to closed-circuit systems operated by local authorities to monitor urban main roads. On the Dartford crossing over the Thames, for example, there will be 28 cameras and links watching every lane. Overall, police expect to have several thousand links by 2008.
My bold -

Oh well they'll be able to sit in the nick ,drinking tea ,doing reports and harassing motorists - pity they won't be able to catch REAL CROOKS!
[/b]

Big Brother

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Steve

There was something on the TV this week (Inside out I think) about the rise in false number plate usage.

One guy who had to fight eight grand worth of fines and congestion charges. And of course you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent in these cases. No compensation for the time he has spent clearing his own name or the stress caused.

Another case was much more worrying.

Armed police smashed down someones door and raided their house because a car with plates registered to them was used in an armed robbery. Is that how stupid criminals have to be to get caught these days? Use your OWN CAR in an armed robbery.

Then the reporter showed how easy (and cheap at £30) it was to get a set of plates made up with no questions asked.

I agree completely, any "criminal" with more than one active brain cell knows that there are numerous ways to bypass being tracked.



I'm not surprised that "cloning" is widespread, if the government wants to keep screwing the motorist with camera's, congestion charges, etc then what do they think is going to happen?


I have a friend who is still fighting the "system" 12 years after somebody who was convicted of Drink/Drive appeared in court as him and was "Disqualified until test passed".

In the last 15 months, my friend has appeared in court no less than 5 times for "driving while disqualified", and every single time the CPS have thrown it out due to a lack of evidence (they cannot prove that my friend is the guy who was actually arrested 12 years ago for the original drink/drive offence).

And the best bit of this is.......
If the original arresting officer had done his job properly the first time around and taken fingerprints & photographs of the drink driver he arrested (which he was supposed to have done anyway), then the proof of who was truly responsible would be right there for all to see.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Here lies the problem, how do you identify someone correctly.

Driving License, Birth Certificate?

Any document which can be forged.

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Steve

It wouldn't have mattered if the original perpetrator was actually identified correctly or not in my friends case.
If the arresting officer had simply photographed & fingerprinted his prisoner (as he was supposed to have done as DD is a criminal offence), then my friends name could have been cleared years ago as even the most brain dead of police officers would be able to pull the record up and realise that my friend & the original perp are not the same person.

The bit that really slays me (and most likely my friend as well), is that while the police acknowledge that there is insufficent evidence one way or the other and the conviction recorded against my friends name should be removed, they still (for some unbeknown reason) refuse to put the record straight.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

I've taken part in numerous ANPR exercises, and have really enjoyed the free pack lunch I am supplied.
Anyway, the ANPR system we use is plugged into the DVLA computer, the Police National Computer, as well as our own crime information and intelligence system.
Most of the time we find ourselves getting hits for no tax, not registered etc. Once in a while we get an intelligence hit, ie used by a drug dealer, suspect car linked to other sorts of crimes and criminals etc.
The exercises are run for usually 2 days, and I would say we have 3 - 6 arrests for both those days on average.
These usually range from criminals wanted for outstanding crimes, arrest warrants, and drug possession as a result of searches. It would in my opinion be better to have these devises fitted to all police cars, so they can ping the criminals as they drive around on normal patrol, than sit in a lay by waiting for it to happen.
If you are legal, you have nothing to worry about.

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'Detritus, get yer stoney arse over ere'

I worry a great deal about the following:

• database errors
• number plate theft
• car cloning
• criminals hidden because they have cloned a numberplate
• gradual loss of control of the entire registration process
• lies by ANPR advocates about no motor insurance hits (after all the driver needs insurance not the vehicle)
• more

Criminals will respond to the widespread use of ANPR. Pretty soon ANPR will be useless, but the criminals will be wiser and better equipped. Meanwhile decent citizens get chased for crimes committed with their cloned numberplate.

Nothing to worry about? You are joking!

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Paul -I totally agree. Would be nice if all ANPR "exercises" could stop the "offending" vehicle at the time, and if necessary prove the legality or otherwise of the vehicle/driver.(to stop further action against legal drivers)
Problem is any ANPR "exercise " that i have seen involves two /three volvos or similar plus several bikes etc.
As a matter of fact the whole "exercise" is advertised by the volume of police vehicles, giving the illegals a chance to divert before the ANPR vehicle.
Just who is paying for this "exercise" when the police forces cry "skint/ no resources"(Notts outsourcing crimes, surrey officers deskbound, Bedford asking for volunteers) when
those who are legal ,and have nothing to worry about
are the victimsof a tyre slashing /window smashing campaign.
or our roads suffer from lack of policing with the scant resources of traffic tied up in "exercises".

Ok I'll admit I was playing devils advocate a little in my last post. I actually dread ANPR exercises because I have noticed that the quality and Quantity of arrests seems to be getting worse on every occasion. It would appear Paul that you are right about the criminals getting wise to the system.
I will admit that the reason i dread them is due to the amount of drivers who are pinged as no insurance, tax etc only to find they are totally legal.

On top of this are the poor buggers who have unwittingly bought a car from a criminal (legally, it does happen), and find themselves getting pulled because the car has come up as being used in the distribution/supply of drugs.

HOWEVER. If used correctly by normal beat officers who use it in conjunction with their own intelligence gathering, it could be a very useful gadget. I just don't agree with having an ANPR van in a lay by with 3 police vehicles waiting for something to happen.
It should not be binned, just used more effectively on a local basis.

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'Detritus, get yer stoney arse over ere'

what genius thought up the slogan on the side "recording crime and disorder"

As i pass by i still look - none to be seen

Oh well as the van is there, along with half the local police force , the crooks have spotted them and gone elsewhere

As I have posted before, nearly every CCTV camera in Bradford is already linked to the ANPR system.

We now skip and hop through any area of the city at any time of night or day.....

...yeah, right. It's been in operation for getting on for a year and the evidence that it is cutting down on any sort of crime is sadly lacking.

Try telling that to my mate who gets arrested on a fairly regular basis for driving while disqualified.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

A while ago we had carnage on a midlands motorway. Tanks/transporters crushed cars, people died.
Meanwhile not so far away we had an ANPR van with her volvos in waiting( at least 3) - and her motorcycle escort.

Would one of these cars on patrol have prevented this ? - [/b]

You are a bad man Neil!! I've spent some happy days sitting in the car as probationers stop motors, with me hoping one of them will 'make off'.....

Seriously though, some genuine concerns have been raised on this thread, and most are perfectly valid. The DVLA system is flawed, theres no doubt about that. Until it's sorted out, faith in ANPR will not be anywhere near what it should be...

Having said that, i think it's a great tool. Forget the 'Big Brother' crap, we live in the most politically correct, free country on the planet, so please don't bore me with all that rubbish...

ANPR is having fantastic results all over the country. Bring it on as far as i'm concerned....

Er, aren't "politically correct" and "free" mutually exclusive?

There are plenty of other countries where you can legally own a target-shooting pistol and hunt foxes with hounds, not to mention drive at 81 mph on the motorway.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

a) The results are exaggerated
b) hidden side effects are already building up
c) results are already on the slide
d) it's just a brief honeymoon - the really important guys - terrorists and organised criminals have already responded and become much harder to find as a result.

Here are the two reports from PA Consulting, who I believe are making millions out of the scheme. They need careful reading...

http://www.paconsulting.com/NR/rdonlyre ... 24_Oct.pdf

http://www.paconsulting.com/NR/rdonlyre ... ochure.pdf

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Fair play Peter, perhaps i should have worded that differently. Oh, and i would never pull someone for doing 81 in an nsl.....

Of course they are.
One "result" this year is that Derbyshire police managed to arrest & get in to a court a person who was (according to the PNC) a disqualified driver.
I will quite happily bet a pound to a pinch of pig shit that the "results" won't show that the individual in question was subsequently acquitted because there was no evidence to prove that he was actually disqualified.


Hell yes they are...it isn't going to be long before the individual above "loses the plot" one day and beats the living daylights out of the next fool that tries to arrest him.
Whether that is right or wrong is neither here nor there, that is the scenario that he is being pushed in to because he isn't going to be able to take it for much longer.


They were harder to catch before the advent of ANPR.

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What makes you think I'm drunk officer, have I got a fat bird with me?

Without 'giving it large', God help anyone who tries to 'beat the living daylights' out of me or one of my colleagues........

ANPR is still a good thing. I hate to disagree with Paul (having read the links he supplied), but apart from a few cases it is still a valuable tool against criminals. It catches exactly the type of people that many here want, ie, the uninsured, disqualified etc...