Safe Speed Forums

Can’t sleep...

My dear late brother once told me in an interview he had for a job, long ago, that he was asked a question; something he was very passionate about and went on to be an unrecognised artist/photographer in his time IMO.

The question asked of him was "Is photography a science or an art?"

So as I sit here reflecting on that, and can't sleep, I stumbled on one of my all time favourite classics, which I know he would have loved, put to something I have not seen before and felt strangely compelled to watch to the end for reasons I’m still working on; hence the thread title.

I'm not a musician but I love real music and maybe someone can help me with this as I ponder on the question of maths, music, nature, love or science...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I think that the straightforward answer to that is "Yes" I don't think that there is such a clear cut distinction between art and science as some people, mainly non-scientists, try to make out. Take that piece of music - one of the finest and most uplifting pieces ever written - and remember that the man who created it is the man who laid down the scientifictheory of keys and scales that underlies modern Western music.

Actually I would decribe photography as a craft. Gotta go now but I hope this one runs for a bit

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I don’t know why it is that I can listen to some classical music or ballads which make me feel lachrymose. Is that nature or nurture? It’s not something anyone could feel towards The Prodigy.

There’s a bird that perches itself on the highest branch of a tall tree in my back garden which sounds incredible but when a dog barks at me I want to boot it up the arse. Is that a case of one man's music is another man's din? I feel the same way when some mother brings their new born little brat into work and while everyone’s going gooey over it I’m really thinking ‘I’d rather look at a lion cub actually’.

As I watched that video I thought it’s quite a good way of expressing the digital world, which made me think of science. (As though it was something else, some other piece of work, passed through an A/D converter). I can imagine the same being done to Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata which is very simple really but again, for myself, quite moving.

So I tell myself it doesn’t have to be complex to be beautiful but that flies in the face of how I feel about Vincent’s 'sunflowers in a vase' which, let’s be honest, has no perspective or depth yet look at how that is regarded and valued.

I always remember catching my incredibly intelligent boss out with something I drew on a sheet of paper the once which I left on a table. It was the outline of a pencil to which I added texture and in French I wrote underneath “Ceci n’est pas une pencil ”. (Although I didn’t spell it quite that well at the time if I’m honest).

He added words to the effect that my French grammar was pathetic and corrected it to ‘this is a pencil’. When I told him it isn’t actually a pencil but a drawing of one and alluded to Magritte’s artwork of a pipe he went rather coy all of a sudden. (He didn’t expect something like that from a moron like me).

Not sure if this is all too arty-farty TBH but I thought I’d wrestle with it to gain some sense of perspective. I know in the past when people have posted on things which are a bit vague or esoteric it can turn up a surprising thing or two or interesting spin-off. I’ve already learned something…

“…and remember that the man who created it is the man who laid down the scientifictheory of keys and scales that underlies modern Western music.”

(Assuming you're not pulling my leg).

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

And there's this

Or this for beauty and serenity.

I think it's all about soul.

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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Photography is a science, a PHOTOGRAPH may be art.

It depends on the REASON for the photograph - was it intended to entertain, educate or enlighten?

A painter does not have to know the science behind the paint he uses - and a painter and decorator is not producing a work of art if he simply changes the colour of your house with a coat of paint - he is merely using the science to protect and decorate the surfaces.
A PAINTING is something else, which usually instills differing perceptions in each viewer.

I used to be a photographer - and I took some pictures whose sole purpose was to record a scene or product - and I took other pictures which were designed to enthrall the viewer, be it scenery or an unusual view of a commonplace object.
In each case I employed science - chemistry and physics to record the image - the ART was in the composition of the image.

Speaking of music, I was once told "there is no such thing as plagiarism in music - just how many combinations of 8 notes could you think up? The originality in music is the rythym and tone changes that cause a listener to be delighted in the work". True enough I suppose!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Thanks Beamer, Ernest and dcb! If the thread ends here I'm so glad I did post

I have one which is irenic but it’s in PowerPoint which I don’t think can be submitted, or I just don’t know how to It's art, love & nature all in one I think - but no matter..

When I was living in California there was a wonderful free broadcast which I had on throughout the evening every night called Classic Arts Showcase http://www.classicartsshowcase.org/

I recorded some of it which, thankfully, works in the UK on the VCR I have. We use PAL but they use NTSC, (Never Twice the Same Colour).

I was hoping there was a web version but sadly not, not that I can see anyway. Considering how young America is and how Europe is meant to be the centre of culture, in many ways, I am flabbergasted that we don’t have something like it TBH.

But no matter, you can get dozens of soaps which are far more important in today’s generation. In fact I think there should be more of them because they have taught me so much, like how to vomit when I least expect it.

I guess it's escapism and I shouldn't mock, although today's generation would propably call it art and love and a bible for life...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

email me the power point Tone, and I'll take it apart and post up the pictures!

See my profile for the email!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I find it hard to equate pointing a modern camera and clicking the shutter release with science.
But I find it easy to equate carefully composing an exquisite picture in the viewfinder with art.


But it helps if he does. The study of the interactions between the various pigments and of their behaviour overtime is certainly scientific and that knowledge contributes to the final appearance of the painting.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Apologies for going a bit off topic, but I think getting a decent photo is somewhat more than that, what with the lighting (and shadows), exposure metering (and it's weighting across the frame), depth of field (and trade-off with exposure time), focus composition, white balance, focal length, polarisation (and other filters), ISO (and trade-off with exposure time) - there might be more but I can't remember off hand.
I bet most people with a modern camera doesn't know what have the camera functions do.

I can do the science, but the art ...

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

If the photograph is a work of art then the person producing it is an artist: therefore photography can be an art.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Isn’t that a bit like saying I'm a vegetarian but I have to eat meat because the animals eat my vegetables?

Okay, I heard it!



The topic’s a bit woolly anyway Steve, and I’m enjoying it

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

I have a 35mm film camera, my late brother’s, which was top of the range at the time but in this digital age even the purists have defected. But thinking about it, how can a digital camera have all the same qualities?

I realise and understand that as the pixels go up the image will improve and you can get ever sharper pictures on a canvas the size of cinema screen, but what about all the other things like Steve mentioned? My bro used to look at a picture and see things I hadn’t got a clue about; too much hue or saturation or other terms he always used. Can a digital camera do all this?

Maybe art is the same as love in that it means something very different to each person. Before I fell in love with Maria she could have walked past me naked and I wouldn’t have noticed. But at some point she turned from Van Gogh’s ‘scream’ into the Mona Lisa. Why? How? And why did I start to see and feel something which wasn’t there before? Was it there before, something in all of us, but needs to be cultivated?

There’s a woman I know through my work who just about anyone would regard as hideously crippled - not a piece of art. But she’s married to a very nice, kind and handsome man who obviously sees something we don’t. (He married her in that state BTW). Is there such thing as beautiful and ugly or is it just all just a state of mind?

I’m reminded of a time I met a woman, again through my work who I spent my lunch break with talking about anything and everything because she warmed my heart so much when she said “I am neither useful nor ornamental". But she was beautiful inside; I just didn’t see it straight away and I had a lovely talk with her. (Although her plight upset me afterwards). How different would our choice of lover be if sight wasn’t in the equation?

I personally know of cases where a nurse or carer has fallen in love with a patient who is in a terrible state, and I do mean terrible! Someone with a brain stem stoke, can't do anything except use his eyes to look up which indicates "yes".

I’m starting to ramble…

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

No. Not even a little bit like that

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

But the biggest part of taking a good photograph is exposure, lens choice, and the use of digital media to capture the image and is all science based, and what makes photography possible.
The COMPOSITION, lighting (if controllable) and timing (knowing just when to press the button) are the realm of the artist. However you can do more with an understanding of the science of photography, just like the artist who understands the chemistry of his paints.

Clicking away with a modern camera uses science to make up for the lack of knowledge of many of the users!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Interesting video you posted Big Tone, watching it I could not help but think just how mathematical it looked

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Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Me too toltec!

Thank you!!!

I couldn't put it into words very well at the time but after watching it a dozen times I came to the same conclusion.

Some men in prison look at the bars, where others look at the stars.

At one point I saw a sine wave; well in my head I did, near enough.

Make of that what you will....

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIfon2OGz_4

Just a set of pictures taken over two or three days last year, and put to music via Picasa from Google.

No editing or timing, other than altering the slide duration by trial and error until the slides matched the duration of the track!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Really nice thanks Ernest

Hope you got my email of the PowerPoint thing I sent you? If not, give me a shout sometime please if you don't mind?

We are all subjects of the mathematical world; no disputing that I hope?
We all appreciate music of some kind, even if our tastes do differ substantially.
We are all a part of nature, that’s a given if ever there was.
Love is surely a part of everyone in some way, shape or form?
And if it were not for science, true science, where would we be today? It’s still trying to do its best against religion, prejudice and ignorance but at least most of us agree that the Earth is not flat at last now. That wheel turns slower than any other in our ignorant and brain-washed world unfortunately...

In nature I trust, just as surely as I know it will kill me some day. I’m okay with that. I think happiness, as we humans know and want it, comes at a price which most people neither appreciate nor understand the ramifications of as we swim against the tide of nature’s much more powerful wisdom.

We can collectively lie to ourselves but in time we will pay the price, just as past generations have and continue to do so. We are already paying the price but the show must go on. By the time we have learnt the lessons of history it wil be too late. Well that's what I think anyway.

Can't sleep again. Musings, just musings...

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Bach is, with good cause, regarded by musicologists as the moth mathematical of musicians.

Scholars have spent a lot of time studying the way in which Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) made use of a number of formal mathematical patterns when he composed his majestic organ fugues. - Bach used for instance the "golden section" as well as the Fibonacci succession (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13 etc., in which each number in the succession is the sum of the two previous ones). In many ways he worked like an architect, joining the two different parts of a musical piece into one harmonious whole before the actual process of composition started. Bach believed that a well-proportioned fugue would provide a guaranteed basis for a successful composition.

And Bach also devised the "well tempered" method of tuning keyboard instruments which persisted into the 19th century.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

I have always liked Bach....


I had no idea it was a mathematical thing!

They do say that playing classical music to children even while in the womb improves their chances of becoming good mathematicians.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!